Category Archives: friend zone

Don’t be just the nice guy

First: there is a difference between a nice guy and a good guy.

I’m not sure how to let you know if you are a “nice” guy. Most of the time though, nice-guys are described as being someone who is always friendly, thoughtful, and there for you, but never making any strong moves in dating. A nice-guy lacks that aura of confidence and drive.

Also, you may end up being the the guy[space]friend a lot of the time, instead of the boyfriend.

On one end of the spectrum is the player, on the other is the nice-guy. Both are extremes. One creates no trust, the other creates no passion. (Both prohibit a relationship.)

You want to be in somewhere in the middle, in a range we call, “the good guy.” And! the good news is it’s super easy for nice guys to slide into that section of the spectrum.

The good guy knows how to respect women while also respecting himself. He doesn’t get distracted by girls who mess with his head, and he doesn’t waste time on a girl who can’t appreciate him. In other words, he dates women, instead of just being their friend.

Second: Women want a man who acts for himself.

This doesn’t mean ignoring others or refusal to compromise. It’s the responsible use of agency—and it just means that a guy is confident. It looks like a guy who knows what he wants, and knows how to organize it. Good men want good things, and they get them with kindness, fairness, and soul-slicing sweetness.

A good guy doesn’t have to be extremely handsome, smooth with words, athletic, coordinated, or wealthy to have this kind of x-factor confidence. A good guy doesn’t have to have a six-pack. He doesn’t even have to have a nice car. He just has to know he’s capable. Or at least act like he’s capable.

Girls frequently mistake arrogance for confidence, and it causes them a whole lot of issues.  That’s why you see good girls falling over and over for the guys who only want make-outs. Players use arrogance to feed their own insecurities and manipulate girls. A player knows what he wants. And he knows he can get it. It’s really dysfunctional, but some girls misunderstand the “want” part and swoon for the “knowing” part. Hopefully, someday they’ll learn.

In the meantime, you should stop being just the nice guy, and be the guy girls talk about in hushed whispers at late-night dinner parties.

Third: How to slide into the Good Guy Range

  1. Make changes in your life that will give you more confidence. If you feel awkward—take Karate or Tae Kwan Do. If you feel boring—diversify: learn a new skill, take up a new sport, read articles and magazines that have nothing to do with your major. If you never know what to say to women—just ask them about themselves [more about this topic here & here].
  2. Exercise. Don’t ever underestimate the power of a good work-out. This gets its own bullet point because exercise is the magical unicorn ingredient to confidence. It just is.
  3. Give her space. This one is tricky but key. And even though, players use it all the time to play games with girls minds, good guys use it to just be normal and create a healthy amount of desire.  It probably deserves its own post, but it looks like this: You ask a girl in your ward out on a Friday night. You have a really great time. On Sunday, you say hi—ask her briefly about something you talked about on your date (or something), and then you move on and talk to other people. In between Sunday and your next date, do not treat her any different than any other friend or acquaintance. When you see her, say hi. What this means to her: your dates are something to look forward to 🙂
  4. Your happiness doesn’t depend on her reciprocated interest. It’s really difficult, but don’t let your ego get in the way—if a girl is not interested, you have to move on. Incorporating the principles of #1 & #2 will help with this.  Girls can sense when a guy is self-assured and happy. It’s extremely double attractive. It’s the element players fake with arrogance all the time. Don’t fake it. Just be it: If at any point it becomes clear that she’s not interested in a relationship with you, move on. This creates two situations: 1. you don’t waste your time. 2. she may realize you’re not like other guys she’s dated (who put up with her game-playing antics). She’ll realize you’re awesome—and she’ll want to date you. Either way: you have a happy life.

You can do it! (may the force be with you…)

Man to Man: Tribute to Girls

We’re proud to welcome a new blogger to our Man to Man team. As the newest addition to our guy panel, Mont is here to chime in with answers to your questions about the dating world. As always, shoot us an email (proxeeconsulting@gmail.com) or respond in the comments and we’ll pass along your question to our team.

To kick off what is sure to be the first of many posts, he’s submitted a sweet tribute to women. Don’t be fooled by the title though — guys, he has some thoughts for you too.

_____________________

This is my tribute to the girls who are overlooked, who become friends & nothing more and think it is because they are doing something wrong.

This is for the girls who don’t want to play mind games, who provide a comforting hug & supportive audience for a story they’ve heard a thousand times.

This is for the girls who understand that they aren’t perfect & that the guys they’re interested in aren’t either.

For the girls who flirt & laugh over the slightest glance, whisper, or touch and that hope that maybe, just maybe this time he’ll have understood.

This is a homage to the girls who laugh & do it often, who are comfortable in skirts & sweats, who care more than they should for guys who don’t deserve their attention.

This is for the girls who have been in trenches, who have watched with a broken heart other girls time & time again fake up & make up & mess up the guys in their lives.

This is to honor those girls who know that guys are just as scared as they are, who know that they deserve better, who are seeking to find it.

This is for the girls who have never been in love, but know that it’s an experience that they don’t want to miss out on, for the girls who have sought a night with friends & been greeted by a night of rude catcalls, explicit invitations and that they’d rather not have experienced.

This is for the girls who have left sad song lyrics in their away messages or aim profiles, who have tried to make someone understand through a subliminally appealing profile, who have time & time again dropped him hint after hint after hint, only to watch him chase after another girl.

This is for the girls who have been told that they are too good or too smart or too pretty.

This is for the girls who have been led on by words & kisses & touches, all of which were either only true for the moment or never real to begin with.

This is for the girls who have allowed a guy into their heart, only to discover that he’s just not ready, he’s just not over “her”, or he’s just not looking to be tied down.

This is for the girls who have had their hearts broken, & their hopes dashed by someone too cavalier to have cared in the first place.

This is for the nights spent dissecting every word & syllable & inflection in his speech, and for the nights when you’ve returned home feeling alone.

This is for the night you convinced yourself that it would never happen, and the sunrise you saw the next morning after failing to sleep.

This is for the “I really like you, so let’s still be friends” comment after you read all the signals wrong.

This is for the hugs you’ve received from your female friends, for the nights they’ve reassured you that you are beautiful & intelligent & amazing & loyal & truly worthy of a great guy.

This is for the girls who have been used & abused, who have endured what he was giving because she couldn’t make herself believe he didn’t deserve her.

This is for the girls who have been satisfied with too little & who have learned never to expect anything more. For the girls who don’t think that they deserve more because they’ve been conditioned for so long to accept the scraps thrown to them by guys.

This is what I don’t understand: us men sitting & questioning & whining that girls are only attracted to the mean guys, the guys who berate them & belittle them & don’t appreciate them & don’t want them.

Us men who complain that we will never meet nice girls, girls who are genuinely interested & compelling who are intelligent & sweet, smart, & beautiful. We despair that no good women want to share in our lives, that girls play mind games, that girls love to keep us hanging, yet, I have to ask:
Are we to meet one of these genuinely interested, thrilling, compelling, intelligent & sweet and beautiful & smart girls, are we to give her our number & wait for her to call, & if we were to receive a call from her the next day, & she in her truthful, loyal, intelligent, and straightforward nice girl fashion were to tell us that she finds us intriguing & attractive & interesting & worth her time & perhaps material from which she could fashion a boyfriend, would we not immediately call our friends to tell them of the “stalker chick” we met the night prior, who called & wore her heart on her sleeve, & told the truth? & would we not refuse to make plans with her, speak with her, see her again & once again return to the party scene & search once more for this “nice girl” who we just cannot seem to find?

Because there in lies the truth.
Nice girls are everywhere, but maybe we are not looking for a nice girl, were not looking for someone genuinely interested in our intramural basketball game, or our anatomy midterm grade, or that argument we keep having with our parents.

Maybe we’re looking for a quick fix. A night when we can pretend to have a connection with another human being which is just as quick as the night itself.

Perhaps we shouldn’t say we’re on the lookout for a nice girl, when we pass her up every day.

If we truly were, we’d see her right in front of us.

Man to Man: Taking “No” for an Answer

Dave’s back! This time, he’s giving some tips on how to handle things when they just don’t go your way.

I’ve written before about how girls often choose not to be entirely frank when rejecting guys and how important it is to have enough respect for them to accept a less-than-direct response.  Often, we guys don’t pay attention to what girls are trying to tell us when we’re being rejected.  Or we can’t imagine why any girl wouldn’t want to go out with us.  If you continue to ask a girl out after she has tried to tell you ‘no’ then you come across as arrogant, aggressive, and overzealous.

I have the misfortune of understanding how this type of badgering feels from a personal experience with a very persistent female.  When I was in twelfth grade a girl from a neighboring school asked me out.  She got my number from a former seminary teacher and when she called me up she started off the conversation with, “you probably don’t remember me but…” She was right, I didn’t—I kind of recognized the name but I definitely couldn’t put a face to it.  She was asking me to her winter formal because “there just aren’t any good guys to ask at my school.”  Sounded like trouble to me—I didn’t want to go.  I told her that I thought I had a concert choir performance that night and that I’d check and get back to her.  Turns out I did have a performance.  What a relief.  I called her back to tell her:

Me: I’m sorry but I have a concert that same night.

Her: That’s ok, I can just pick you up for the activity, drop you off for your concert, and then pick you up afterwards to go to the dance…

Me: …

Her: …

Me: Umm, ok.   The concert’s at 7.

What could I say at that point?  My excuse was legitimate, but I was really hoping that it would get me out of a date I didn’t want to go on.  When she dodged it I had two options: go with her or tell her that I really didn’t want to.  I could have been wrong, but I judged that she was the type of girl who would have a hard time with rejection so I felt obligated to go.  Needless to say, the date was way south of mediocre—even straying into ‘worst date ever’ territory at times.

Now, guys, we’re the ones who are generally in the position of asking girls to go out with us.  We need to make sure that we never put girls in situations where they feel obligated to go out on a date when they aren’t interested.  If she gives you an excuse you should accept it and try again another time.  Don’t start grasping at straws in an attempt to corner her into going out with you.  If she says she has something, DO NOT ask her what it is or what time or anything else that makes her think you suspect she’s fibbing.  Remember, “I’m busy” is much easier for everyone than “I’m really not interested in you”.

When you get turned down, listen to how she does it—if she suggests that you go out some other time then you should try asking her out again in a week or so.  Generally, if she says ‘no’ to three attempts in a row without a legitimate excuse I would suggest not calling her again.  Persistence is not going to make her like you more.  It feels like I always hear old men who got married young say stuff like “I had to convince my wife to marry me.”  While this may be true in some cases, it’s more likely just something that these guys say to be self-deprecating and funny.

While you should be sensitive to whether a girl is rejecting you, you need to be careful that you don’t become gun-shy.  You should work to find a happy medium between timid and overzealous.  Being bold and confident are good things, so long as you’re careful not to cross the line to arrogant and cocky.  Ask out as many girls as you can but know how to quit when they’re trying to tell you that they’re not interested.

-Dave

Definition of a Date

Welcome to the Proxee Blog! We’ve got some great content lined up for you and our guest bloggers are anxiously waiting their turn as we finish setting things up. In the meantime, here’s our very first how-to-date topic: what exactly is a date?

Between the two of us, Danielle and I cover a wide spectrum of the dating world when it comes to the guys who approach us. More and more often we’ve been confronted with the unsettling fact that some otherwise well-meaning and charming guys are getting confused about what constitutes a date.

Let’s turn to the ever-reliable, not at all ironic, urban dictionary:

As much as I like this one…

5. An activity between 2 mutually attracted people which very often ends in one or both leaving sexually frustrated (Hi, Provo!)

…I think this one nails it:

1. Two people getting together for an activity when the possibility of romance between them has been broached but not ruled out. Since the exploration of romance is the purpose of a date, merely asking someone out on a date is sufficient to broach the subject. Dates may or not continue once a couple have entered into a romantic relationship.

If it is as simple as that, how come so many girls end up wondering “Is this a date or not?”

If your intention is to be friends with a girl, kudos to you (unless you are one of those “nice guys” who try to backdoor their way into a relationship by becoming a bestest friend forever first and then whining when she only sees you as exactly that). But if you want more than that, cut the crap and ask her out in a way that she will know, without a doubt, that you intend to take her on a date.

Elder Oaks mentioned in a fireside that there were three P’s of dating. I’m going to piggyback off him and then add one more of my own.

1. Planned Ahead

Here’s the thing guys….

Unless I hear the word “date”, I’m probably not going to consider it one. The exception is the implied “date” in the words “I’d like to take you to…”

Know what the two of you will be doing! And let her know at least a day in advance via actual conversation (not a text). In a recent informal poll taken at every girl’s night ever, it was determined that one of the biggest turnoffs during the first few dates are the words “So what do you want to do/ where do you want to go?”

For one, we like to know what we should wear. I’m a high heels girl and I need to know if we are going somewhere that would require a lot of walking so I can hunt down some flats. More importantly, it shows her that you cared enough to put thought into the evening. A date, especially a first date, shouldn’t involve spectacular displays or the pressure for commitment, but it should involve thought.

2. Picked-up

I used to tell myself that I really didn’t care if I guy picked me up, especially if we were going somewhere closer to his place than mine. But I soon noticed that the guys who were willing to just meet me there were the ones who were lazy in other areas as well. Now I have a strict no-drive, no-date policy that helps me weed out the lazy ones. If he doesn’t think I’m worth the drive, I don’t think he’s worth the date. Once things are more established between us, I’m happy to spend time behind the wheel to see him.

Show the girl the courtesy of picking her up.

3. Paid For

Touchy subject and one that varies depending on the person. I’m a firm believer that whoever asks, pays. Show the girl that she’s more than just a convenient piece of estrogen and follow-through with the date you arranged. Down the road, she’ll do the same.

4. Privacy

Can I add a fourth one here? Privacy. I’m not talking about alone-at-the-apartment-in-the-dark privacy. I mean showing the girl the courtesy of being on a date with her and only her. Dating is not a spectator sport and you should not be bringing along a panel of judges friends. She should not feel like a contestant on American Idol when she’s with you. Nothing about your date should bring to mind Ruben Studdard comparisons.

Make me feel like the one on the right and I will turn into the one on the left.

Lately, I’ve noticed that more and more guys I go out with want to immediately introduce me to their friends. Now, I’m not against getting to know a guy’s friends. I’ve stayed friends with almost every guy I have ever been involved with and one of the best parts was that I also got to stay friends with the people I met through them. I even love meeting their new girlfriend or spouse and seeing what type of girl was right for them. But if every date we went on included their friends in some way, you can be sure that I wouldn’t have stuck around long enough to get to know any of them. Let me explain.

Part of beginning to date someone is being vulnerable to someone you really have no reason to trust yet. If most of your dates involve your buddies, you aren’t going to see the parts of her that she would have shown you otherwise. Whatever feelings she might start to have for you are incentive for her to start opening up to you. She doesn’t have any of those feelings for your friends. They might seem like a safety net to you, a group of people to validate your choice or give you a fall-back in case she turns out to be boring. But to her, they are an audience that she doesn’t necessarily want to preform for. Their presence is going to influence what you two talk about, what you don’t talk about, and how she act around you.

Essentially, if you are hanging out with your friends, you are hanging out. You are friend-zoning yourself by not putting the two of you in situations that would promote the kind of intimacy that leads to actual dating.

Does she want to meet your friends? Yes, eventually.

Does she want them to like her? Yes.

But she wants you to like her—to get to know her—to date her—first.

Love

Your Proxee Jayme